[ Cheers and applause ]

Hey! There's your book.

Rosemary: Thank you.

Bill: Thank you very much. One of the magical minds behind "Fantasia 2000," he'll be performing with his buddy Teller at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas April 13th through the 26th - our pal Penn Jillette.

[ Cheers and Applause ]

Yes, sir! How are ya, big man?

Penn: Never better, Bill. Never better.

Bill: He is one of the fine stars of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" Tuesday night at 8:00 on another network - James Marsters right over here! Yeah! Hey! Good to meet you, sir. Thank you for coming on. And the talented songwriter/actor, all around entertainer - oh, this guy is great. He has his own radio show on KZLA - Mr. Mac Davis right over here!

[ Cheers and Applause ]

And let's not forget "North Dallas Forty," huh?

Mac: Yes.

Bill: Okay. Well, Rosemary, I wanna get right to your book, 'cause this is sort of a phenomenon. And, whenever I talk about the undead, and I'm not talking just about Bradley and McCain -

[ Laughter ]

-- people usually disagree with me. I think I'm gonna be on your side on this, because I know you say you hear dead people.

Rosemary: I hear, I see, I sense in every way.

Bill: Dead -

Rosemary: Don't start with me, guys, yet.

Bill: I'm not gonna start with you. I truly believe -

Penn: I think you just state your case, you'll hang yourself.

[ Laughter ]

Rosemary: No, no.

Penn: I don't think we're gonna say jack.

Bill: I think it is arrogant - absolutely arrogant for us with our puny little five senses to think, that, we, with those crappy little five senses, know everything that is going on in the universe.

Penn: Who says that? Who's ever said that?

[ Applause ]

Name, like, one person who said they know everything with their five senses. Name, like, one scientist that's ever said that. Has it ever been said by anyone? Who are you arguing against?

Bill: Well, do you believe what she is saying?

Penn: No, she's a nut.

[ Laughter ]

But, not because I know everything in the universe. It's because I don't know things. I'm the one that -

Bill: So how can you say for sure that there are not -

Rosemary: Can I just answer this?

Penn: I didn't say for sure that there were not, I just wanna see some evidence that there is.

Rosemary: Can I just get a word in here please?

Penn: Okay, I hadn't cut you off yet, but, I will - you're a nut! Okay, but go on.

[ Laughter ]

Rosemary: You know, my mother - my grandmother was - this is going to - I'm going to give you something for your case here. My grandmother was a patient in a psychiatric hospital in the city of Leicester in England where I was born. And she heard voices. And everyone knew that she was crazy. And as I was growing up with the same traits that my grandmother had, my mother also told me that I would end up in a psychiatric hospital and that I would be in a straitjacket. So you agree with my mother, 'cause my mother, in your words, didn't know jack either. And I am not crazy. I am one of the sanest people on this Earth. And I think that there are many, many people who understand exactly what I'm saying, agree with what I'm saying and have had many, many experiences. It's sad that you haven't had those experiences. But it doesn't make me a crazy person.

Penn: No, no - there's no doubt that you've had experiences -

[ Cheers and applause ]

Rosemary: Thank you.

Penn: There's no doubt that you've had experiences.

Bill: I've had experiences.

Penn: There's no doubt that you've had experiences.

Bill: I'm telling you, my old house had poltergeists. They used to rearrange the balls on the pool table.

Penn: They did?

James: There's a big difference between what you want to be true and what is true - do you know?

Bill: Yes.

James: I mean, we will see what we want to see. If everybody desperately wants there to be an afterlife - so we explore that and we look for reasons to believe that that's true. But it doesn't make it true.

Rosemary: When I was growing up, and in my experiences, I didn't want an afterlife. I didn't want to talk to the spirit world. I didn't want anyone to talk to me because it meant that I was a crazy person. It meant that I was prime for people to insult me just as you do.

Mac: That's why I don't talk about the typewriter noises in my head.

[ Laughter ]

Bill: But have you ever experienced anything where you thought, "Oh, my God - that is not of this world"?

Mac: Hm-hmm.

Bill: Never? Really? You never were in a -

Rosemary: James, what was it you experienced?

James: I used to have dreams when I was a little kid, wake up, and it would be a dream of when I was older. And, later in life, I would remember dreaming what was happening to me ten years later. This has happened to me like five times. But this is a mystery to me. This is not something that I can quantify.

Penn: But, Bill, what you said, you were kind of arguing for humility - that we don't know everything.

Bill: Right.

Penn: And you said the pool balls were rearranged on the pool table. And what made you think that the best explanation was ghosts from another world as opposed to the other 5 million explanations?

Mac: Earthquakes.

Penn: Why do you lack humility to say, "I don't know why these balls moved around"? What made you say ghosts?

Bill: It couldn't have been the drinking.

[ Laughter ]

Penn: That may be my point.

Bill: Because I remember specifically one night, they were all -

Penn: Well, I'm not saying they didn't move, I'm just saying why does it have to be other worldly creature and not something else?

Bill: Like, what do you mean, a thief broke into my house and played with my pool table?

Penn: Maybe something I can't think of because I have the humility to say "I don't know." I don't know - my five senses are not enough.

Bill: You're right. It could be.

Penn: But why do you jump to ghosts? Why is that the one you jump to?

Bill: Because ghosts are there.

Rosemary: You don't have humility to say you don't know.

Penn: I sure do! I don't know why you're hearing voices. Why do you say they're definitely coming from the dead? How were you sure they're from the dead?

Rosemary: Well, have the humility to read my books, to listen to my opinion. And make up your mind when you know me that well.

Penn: Right, I'm saying -

[ Applause ]

Why are you saying that that's the explanation out of - there's no other explanation for what it could possibly be in the world, except dead people talking you to?

Rosemary: No, I can tell you that I am one of the most skeptical people I know. And I have questioned - you called me a nut within two seconds of me coming on this - Penn: Four.

Rosemary: Four seconds - okay, I'll give you that. Excuse me, you called me a nut. You have no humility.

Penn: No, no, no - there was no explanation. There was no respect for you, but there was humility.

Rosemary: There's no respect.

Penn: No respect? No.

Rosemary: Well, you should have respect for other human beings.

Penn: Why? For you?

Rosemary: Exactly.

Bill: You're contradicting yourself.

Penn: Okay.

Bill: I really think you are, because I call myself a "Ninety nine percenter" - which means I'm only 99% sure of anything, even that O.J. did it.

[ Laughter ]

I can only be 99% sure. You seem to be -

Mac: Did what?

Bill: Broke the rushing record that year. My God, man!

[ Talking at the same time ]

Penn: I'm not sure she -

James: I'm not sure we're here.

Rosemary: Of course you are, you attacked me and called me a nut.

Penn: No, no, no - that's right. That's right. I'm 99% sure you're a whacko, but I'm not positive. I could have that 1%, can't I?

Bill: There we have humility. I have to take a commercial. We'll be right back.

[ Cheers and Applause ]

Bill: All right, we were talking about your book, which is about hearing dead people. And the movie of the same probably will - isn't "The Sixth Sense" up for an Oscar?

Rosemary: Yeah.

Bill: Isn't that gonna be one of the big movies?

Mac: Mm-hmm.

Penn: It's a good movie.

Mac: A great movie.

Bill: Right. And I thought I'd bring this up because you're here. I know you wrote three big hit songs for Elvis, including "In The Ghetto," one of my favorites, 'cause who knows more about the ghetto than Elvis?

[ Laughter ]

Mac: And me.

Bill: And you - exactly. But, I mean, there's a guy who's been dead 23 years that nobody can let go, and people still see in Safeway -

[ Laughter ]

I know someone who has a velvet painting of him who swears, that, every time they pass with a chicken leg, the painting cries.

[ Laughter ]

Mac: I have a velvet painting of Elvis that was given to me by the Colonel - Colonel Parker.

Bill: Wow.

Mac: Brought it to me wrapped in big, brown wrapping paper, which is typical of the Colonel - the cheaper the better.

Bill: Yeah, save money.

Mac: And it was a copy - it was not the velvet painting itself, it was a copy of that painting done on, like, cardboard or something. And he said, "This is my favorite painting of Elvis." And I unwrap it and it's in a plastic frame, and it still has a little cheap 98-cent lamp attached to the frame that you can plug in back there and then flip it on so it would shine on Elvis' picture. And he signed it, you know, "to Mac Davis, Whose curly head I once touched and told I would be a star," whatever. And I still have that. I don't have it hanging. Oh, it was wonderful. It was great.

Bill: But, why do you think Elvis has this power and why can't people let him go? Why can't they let him die?

Penn: Are you skeptical at all about the Safeway sightings of Elvis?

Bill: That I am, yes.

Penn: So what makes you think that they aren't seeing them - they're seeing them and they're giving you their word?

Bill: Because I don't think you can see ghosts. No, I don't think they're visual. I know someone who had ghosts in their - I think, anytime you live in a place where people died, you will have ghosts. I mean, The Comedy Store has ghosts. There's no doubt about it. They move the furniture. And you can smell 'em. You can feel a whoosh of air go by.

Penn: You don't think there's any other explanation except ghosts possible?

Bill: Like what?

Penn: I don't know. Something that you and I don't know. Why do you say it is ghosts?

Mac: 'Cause people don't wanna let him go. It's not ghosts. It's people don't wanna let him go. He's in their hearts. He was an icon.

Bill: Conway Twitty had a lot of hits, we don't do that to him. [ Laughter ]

Mac: You got Frank Sinatra, you got Elvis Presley and you got the Beatles.

Penn: You got Houdini.

Bill: But nobody sees the ghost of John Lennon. Nobody sees Frank Sinatra.

Mac: How do you know? I saw his ghost last night.

Bill: No you didn't.

Mac: Yes, I did.

Bill: Whose ghost?

Mac: George.

Bill: George is still alive.

[ Laughter and applause ]

Mac: That's what you think. See, that's your opinion.

James: You know, I think that Elvis and the Beatles and Sinatra and all of them - got famous at a time when there was television for the first time. There was an ability to be that famous for the very first time.

Penn: Houdini was that famous.

Bill: Not Frank Sinatra. Frank Sinatra got famous in 1939.

James: That was before my time.

Bill: Yeah, okay, well -

James: But, suddenly, Elvis, there was worldwide fame suddenly, a fame level, for the first time, and -

Penn: Houdini was a worldwide star at the beginning of the century. Houdini was a huge star. And, when all was said and done a couple hundred years from now, Houdini may be very close to Elvis in the way he's remembered. He was an important person in the early part of the century. He was not just a magician. He was a superstar and he was a political figure. He testified, before Congress, against people like you, incidentally.

Bill: There's lots of people who were huge, but why Elvis? Why does he become - I mean, to a lot of people, I have to say, I've said this years ago and a lot of people have stolen it from me - he's become Jesus for them. I mean, they do the same things. They sort of celebrate his birthday. They show up with candlelight vigils.

Penn: They claim he wasn't on drugs. Do they do that with Jesus?

James: What does America have? We have blues, we have jazz, and Elvis brought blues and jazz and rock 'n' roll into the American mainstream.

Bill: So did the Rolling Stones. We don't see them, and they're dead.

James: He was seminal.

Rosemary: I think, when he was alive, he was larger than life. He was so much larger than life, and he stood on that stage and he was so inspirational to so many people. He came from nothing. I mean, the Elvis story came from nothing.

Mac: He was a common man's hero.

Penn: He was also a stunningly good performer.

Rosemary: A common man, and the common people recognize him. If he can do it, we can do it.

Bill: That still doesn't explain why we see him after he's dead. There's lots of performers who are like that, including, like you said, sinatra and the Beatles. Nobody sees John Lennon. I've never heard one person say -

Penn: There was a psychic who put out a book talking to John Lennon as a matter of fact.

Bill: A nut.

[ Laughter ]

That's a nut. That nut I'll give you.

Penn: Okay. I'm just trying to find out where we are.

Bill: I'll tell you where we are. We're at commercial.

[ Applause ]

Announcer: Join us tomorrow when our guests will be - from "King of Queens" Leah Remini, Dr. Ruth Westheimer, comedian John Henson and writer and actress Amy Kean.

Bill: All right, we have thrown the word "nut" around here a lot tonight. But let me ask you about this, 'cause this, of course, is the season where legislators feel the need to make laws that we may or may not need. Michigan passed a bill making sexual relations between mental health providers and their patients illegal. As a Libertarian, I would say it's a little offbeat to have such a relationship. I don't know if the government should be stepping in and telling anybody -

James: Oh, completely, yes. They're not in their right minds. It's the same thing as statutory rape. They're not able to give their consent. They're mental. They have -

Bill: Is anyone in love in their right mind?

[ Laughter ]

James: No, but you assume that someone with all of their faculties running properly has the best chance to say "No" if they don't want to.

Mac: You don't want people having sex with people who are hearing voices and stuff.

[ Laughter ]

Rosemary: Absolutely. I perfectly agree with that. I perfectly agree.

[ Cheers and applause ]

In fact - in fact -

Penn: I didn't say it. Don't point to me.

James: He put you up to it.

Penn: Don't point to me. Quit pointing at me like I said it - it was you who said it.

James: People are gonna get hurt.

Penn: Okay, I know people are gonna get hurt.

Rosemary: Look, I'm going to tell you, I've never had sex in my life, and I have a daughter. So you figure it out. I must have the Immaculate Conception.

Penn: Makes as much sense as everything else you say.

Rosemary: Now that's really a crazy -

Bill: But he said she's a nut.

Rosemary: I actually agree with James. I think that it's - we should have some protection for people who are unstable, mentally ill. And I think that if your health system can't make those judgments where you don't trust your health system, I don't - I'm British, so I don't know whether you can trust your health system to police this.

Bill: Did you see "Girl Interrupted"? You know, they weren't that crazy. And they were hot.

[ Laughter ]

James: Exceptions could be made.

Bill: Yeah, exactly. That's my point.

Penn: In that Michigan law, didn't it also count priests?

Bill: Yes, it did. Another part of the bill said "Between clergy and people they counsel," because there was a powerful imbalance.

Penn: But isn't that really like the government says, "Well, you know, God isn't powerful enough to do this"? It's supposed to be a mortal sin for a priest to sleep with someone. So since God can't handle it, the government will step in. I mean, isn't that incredible hubris there?

James: There's two different issues. Those are two different things.

Penn: You're for the priests, but against the mental patients?

James: Yeah - a priest can go do what they want. Go baby.

Bill: Well, it's just the clergy. I don't think they mean - priests are supposed to be celibate. They're not having sex with women.

Penn: But they're not legally celibate.

James: Just with the boys.

Mac: I think the ACLU should go out and see to it that women can become priests. Then they start dictating who can have sex.

James: Then we can have sex with those priests.

Mac: To me, that's a bigger deal. Women can't be priests. Priests can't have sex. I mean, they don't allow women to be priests. Why don't ACLU bring that up? Why don't they make that a big deal?

Penn: But that's not a government thing. That's just the church. You can have any sort of rules you want within the church.

Mac: Then the ACLU should keep their nose out of the sex thing, too.

Rosemary: But I do think there is a need with the mental health thing. I do think there is a need for us to protect them and keep them safe, because they don't necessarily know what they're doing and they're extremely vulnerable. I think the priest issue is a whole other issue.

James: The history of mental health people raping and molesting mental health patients is long. And I frankly can't believe that there's not a law already on the books.

[ Applause ]

[ Cheers and applause ]

Bill: All right. Mr. Mac Davis.

Mac: I just wanted to say I was being facetious on the mental health issue - the therapist and the patients' thing a while ago. I'm definitely on their side on this. I mean, I definitely -

Bill: What, are you running for office?

Mac: No, I just want you to know that I really do care about that. And I think it's very important that they be protected.

Bill: Where do you meet people? In the workplace. You're working in an asylum - oh, never mind. Tomorrow - Leah Remini, Dr. Ruth Westheimer, John Henson and Amy Kean. Thank you, folks.